In her mid-30s, Leslie Fram looked into the used-furniture store of life and pulled out a husband. That is, she married a divorced man. But that was only after she checked out the internal framework and found it solid. Then she set about re-covering him. And now she has a relationship that she says is as comfortable as can be.
So she wrote a book about it, having concluded that as marriage material, a divorced man is a much greater value than a chronic bachelor. Her “How to Marry a Divorced Man” (Regan, $22.95) reads like a psychological blueprint for rehabbing a guy.
Q staffers Devin Rose and Ross Werland, who know a thing or two about divorce, sat down to talk with the northern California author.
D: Can we get a little background first? How long you’ve been married, etc.
Almost 5 years, and I have a little baby, a 10-month-old.
D: Can we talk about the lifer bachelors a little? I know you were 35 when you decided, OK, it’s time to get married. So you imply there’s no loser thing about being a woman, being 35 and not being married. But I got from your book that guys who are that age and haven’t been married, there’s something kind of suspect about them.
I think there are people who are just really good at being bachelors. Women go in thinking you’re going to turn them around, and often you can’t. Divorced men, with the wife, the kids, and the life experience, they’re housebroken.
R: Or broken.
Yeah (laughs). I like to say they’re recycled goods. Not damaged goods, but recycled.
D: How old were your husband’s kids when you got together?
They were 9 and 12. A boy and a girl. We worked hard. I met them separately, which I highly recommend. I didn’t rush it, which is what lots of single women do.
D: It feels like you have a very sinister feel for the ex-wife. You even say, “The good ex-wife is not born, you make her.” Did you just have a really rough experience with the ex, or is this what you’ve heard from other women?
I’d say 1 percent of the population with kids involved–it’s a different scenario without kids–it’s really the rarity when people get along with their exes.
D: Do you go in assuming the ex-wife has designs to bring you down? That’s the feeling I got.
No, no! Go in open-minded. Just keep her presence in your life minimal. Don’t go in thinking you’re going to be best friends.
R.: It seems like there’s a fine line between making the judgment that this guy is being manipulated by his ex-wife or being a good father. He’s jumping out of bed at 4 in the morning because of an emergency with his kids; is he being a good dad or is she just jerking his chain?
You learn, absolutely, over time. You have to be very open with your divorced man and say, “This is how I’m feeling, she’s intruding.” He needs to be sensitive to that.
R: Is that because all women have the same sinister minds, so she can understand the ex’s evil?
(Laughs) No, no, I don’t think women are sinister, but I think they’re more emotionally driven.
R: Why do you think this happens, the evil that comes out of an ex? I’ve seen it, which is why I can relate to what you wrote and Devin can’t. What is that?
I think sometimes it’s just bitterness and resentment. Expectations weren’t met, and some women, or men, it just leaves a really nasty taste, and it gets perpetuated, and they don’t know how to move on and let go.
R: You say, “the book’s goal is to promote your ability to capture his heart and deliver your divorced man as you want him: on his knees.” Is that on his knees to propose to you, or as a matter of course?
To propose.
D: Now wait a minute. Because you do say, “Women need to seize control of the relationship, gain the upper hand, be calculating and use strategies to get your divorced man to be the way you want him to be.” So there is strategizing, calculating, scheming in there. I think there’s information. And that he has to go through an emotional-healing process with his divorce. If he hasn’t done the work, it’s really miserable for the woman.
R: So you’re essentially acting as his therapist.
Yeah. A woman has to. His wounds aren’t visible to the naked eye. It could be guilt over not being there for the kids the way he used to be; it can be rage at the ex still. You have to help him heal and to resuscitate his spirit.
R: The point you make about “Make him think you love him, warts and all–for now.” What about after the “for now”? Isn’t that dishonest?
No, no. I think you need to proceed gently at first. You need to have a , compassionate approach. Listen to him spew forth about the ex, the kids. But after a while, this divorce spillover and venting is no longer conducive to moving forward.
D: So that’s what you mean by warts and all?
Yes, you have to be loving at first. Establish that love and trust, and then if he still can’t move on–sometimes it takes men years!
D.: Is that what you’re talking about when you say, “keep a running list of his transgressions”?
Yes, because sometimes you really need that. He won’t understand his behavior for a really long time, so you need to say, “Remember when you used to do this and this and this?” And then he’ll understand that he’s not bonded to his past the way he used to be.
D: What about finding somebody who has been divorced maybe five years . . . they’ve gone through and done all their emotional work, because to me it’s still their emotional work to do. Get them after they’ve done all that! You talk about bolstering their egos, helping them through this, telling them they’re sex gods . . . I just think–
I think all relationships need work, and if you found a single guy, you’d have different issues, but there would be something.
D: I know there’s a lot of work in relationships, but it seems as if you’re doing his work.
But the payoff is great, because you’ve got a loving guy there. It’s very front-loaded, this relationship. If you do the work at the early part, you can grow together. D. I also keep coming back to the children thing. In talking about setting up your dream home, you write, “Alas, your dream home will have to include the kids.” Is there some resentment toward the kids from his marriage?
I think it’s really normal to feel resentment and competition. But as I mentioned before, if they’re happy, he’s happy, and they’re the gatekeepers to his heart. I think you have to keep that in mind. You’re not going to get 100 percent of his time, emotional availability and money. That really hits a certain note in a lot of women.
R: As a man, if I found this book on my girlfriend’s nightstand, I would bolt. I’d think, I just left a manipulative situation and now I’m getting into another one. Guys don’t think this much!
I know!
D: But my take on it is, I as a female don’t think this much in a relationship. I think, do I really have to work this hard?
You might not have to, and how lucky is that? And if you do, it doesn’t hurt to know what to do, especially as you get more intimate–and that’s when the stuff comes up.
