It was one for the record books. Assembled in one room, around one table, some of the greatest sports minds and most avid cigar smokers in Chicago. It was early December when they gathered, Tribune columnist Mike Royko, veteran sportswriters Jerome Holtzman and Dave Condon, Ben Bentley, host of WGN-Radio`s ”The Sportswriters,” and sports agent Eloise Saperstein. Former White Sox owner and bon vivant Bill Veeck was also in the group. It was one of his last public appearances before his death on Jan. 2, and he acquitted himself, as usual, with wit and insight.
The Tribune SUNDAY, Magazine asked this group to name their Dream Teams
–the best who ever played for the Cubs, Sox, Bulls, Bears and Hawks. And they obliged with a marathon donnybrook. Tribune Sports Editor Gene Quinn played referee, and manned the sports almanacs.
Here are some of the exchanges, some of the logic, twisted and otherwise, and some of the split decisions that went into the naming of the Dream Teams.
”Okay, let`s start with an easy one, basketball,” Jerome Holtzman suggests.
There seems to be agreement here, but almost immediately an argument arises about the problems of judging players from different eras. Veeck foresees many pitfalls, but before he can enumerate them the argument somehow segues into a question about whether Red Grange should be named to the offensive or defensive team of the Chicago Bears. ”Grange was probably a better defensive back in the pros than he was an offensive back,” Veeck opines.
”He probably was a better ice wagon driver than either,” Royko replies. ”Well he did that in Wheaton when I was growing up,” Veeck admits.
And they`re off.
There is some sentiment that all professional franchises should be included. ”Listen, (in basketball) there were the Bruins, the Zephyrs, the Meatpackers, the Stags,” Holtzman says. ”There were some pretty good ball players in those days. Any of those teams would be better than the Bulls if they had a center.”
”But did they have a center?” Royko asks.
”Chicago never had a center,” Holtzman says.
”That`s our problem.”
”Whatsa matter with Boerwinkle?” Bentley interjects. ”Whatsa matter with that great team…oh, go ahead, I see I`m gonna run into a stone wall.” And so on.
They finally agree to start with the Bulls.
”I`d make Abe Saperstein the coach,” Holtzman says. ”He did a helluva lot more for basketball than Dick Motta. Motta wasn`t outstanding, Motta was . . . what was Motta? Just another coach.” After a check with the record books, which shows Motta`s winning percentage above average, Holtzman is overruled by the others.
”I think a guy who can have a contender with Boerwinkle at center must be a pretty good coach,” Royko says.
”If he`d been a real good coach,” Holtzman replies, ”Boerwinkle would have been gone.”
They move to the guards. Jerry Sloan is nominated. ”I think he was an outstanding player,” Royko says. ”He skinned his knees a lot.”
”Well, it`s the best of a poor lot,” Holtzman grumps. ”A slightly above average player is all he was.”
The name of Michael Jordan comes up.
”Jordan, he`s a rookie,” Holtzman protests.
”He`s made the franchise,” says Eloise Saperstein.
”He`s played one year.”
”He`s the greatest player we ever had,” says Royko.
Bentley agrees. ”We`ll be totally ridiculed if we omit the name of Michael Jordan.”
”There is no center,” Holtzman says.
This is the way it goes. The battle fronts shift rapidly, one-on-one exchanges erupt, and the rest of the group moves on to the next major confrontation.
”Artis is the closest we can get,” says Saperstein.
”Got a defensive center, Artis Gilmore,” Holtzman grumbles. ”Probably averaged 12 points.”
”How, then, can you ignore Nate Thurman?” Bentley asks.
”You`re going to lose every game,” Veeck announces.
”Well I knew it wasn`t much of a team,” Holtzman grouses. ”You can pick the whole team and they wouldn`t win the NBA title.”
”He had one of the highest shooting percentages in the game,” Royko says.
”He didn`t shoot,” says Holtzman.
”Well, but he didn`t miss a lot,” Royko says.
”I would take Boerwinkle over Nate Thurman,” says Bentley. ”Boerwinkle undoubtedly, and I`ve seen the great centers play, had the fastest outlet pass I ever saw for a guy as big as he was.”
”Boerwinkle would have a hard time making a NBA team today,” says Holtzman.
”He had a hard time making it then,” Veeck adds.
The statistic book settles the argument: Boerwinkle`s scoring average:
7.3; Gilmore 20.1.
On to the forwards. Love and Walker, no contest.
Then it`s on to hockey.
”Hull,” Royko says.
”Well, we got one guy we don`t argue about much,” Veeck says.
”And Bentley,” says Bentley.
”Max or Doug?”
”Doug.”
”Well, we sure picked a lousy basketball team,” Holtzman says.
”Don`t bet on `em, then,” Royko retorts. ”How about Mikita at center?”
”Let`s pick this team quickly,” Holtzman says. ”Nobody cares about hockey.”
”I`m holding out for Gottselig,” Veeck says. ”He played in the dead puck era.`
”I`ve always been partial to Moose Vasko,” Royko says. ”Moose Vasko was a good defenseman. Look at the years he played, just check his longevity. He never made an all-star team. That just shows you how dumb sportswriters are.”
On defense, Veeck nominates Taffy Abel, who played in the 20s and 30s.
”Taffy Apple?” Royko says.
”He`s the best I`ve ever seen in Chicago,” says Veeck.
”Really? Then I`ll take your word,” is Royko`s reply. ”That was good hockey in those days. They used ice.”
”Pick the guy with the most penalty minutes,” Holtzman says. ”The guy with the most penalty minutes has gotta be the best defensive player.”
”What`s wrong with Bobby Hull?”
”Stan Mikita is chopped liver?” Royko replies.
”No, he`s pretty good,” says Holtzman.
”What about this Magnuson,” Veeck suggests.
”Keith Magnuson, a wild guy,” says Royko. ”He had no teeth. Wasn`t he always getting in trouble? I like him.”
”That`s how you pick an all-star team,” says Holtzman. ”The guys who got no teeth.”
”How can you skip Howie Morenz?” says Veeck.
”He`s identifed with another team,” says Holtzman.
”I don`t care,” says Veeck. ”He played in Chicago.”
”If you do that,” says Royko, ”you`re going to end up with Rogers Hornsby. You know, we really should go with players who played their main years, their best years here.”
For goaltender, Holtzman nominates Glenn Hall and Tony Esposito.
Veeck goes for Chuck Gardiner.
Bentley and Royko split on Hall and Esposito.
”Just because you never saw Gardiner,” Veeck says, irritated because he feels his players are handicapped for playing in an earlier era. ”Best average, most shutouts.”
”You`ll only have eight people who know who Gardiner is,” says Holtzman.
”That`s all right,” says Veeck.
Veeck is outvoted.
Tommy Ivan and Rudy Pilous are nominated for coach.
Bentley votes for Ivan.
”What did he do, shave points for you?” Royko growls.
”No, he never . . . I wish he would have,” Bentley answers.
”Billy Reay was a good card player,” Veeck interjects.
”How about Col. McLaughlin?” Holtzman says. (Frederic McLaughlin is listed as one of the ”builders” of the team.)
”Well you might as well pick his wife, then,” says Veeck.
”I never knew him or his wife.”
”He owned McLaughlin`s Coffee, she was a very fine dancer.”
At this point, they clamp a 30-second time limit on votes. Holtzman abstains and Pilous is made unanimous except for Veeck. ”We`re gonna get creamed on that one,” says Veeck. Or you`re gonna get creamed, not me.”
On to football.
They start with ends.
”Who`s for Harlon Hill?” Bentley asks.
”No no,” says Veeck. ”David,” he says to Condon, ”aren`t you going to come to Bill Hewitt`s defense?”
”He was not a split end,” says Bentley.
”He went both ways,” says Veeck.
”When I saw the Bears, there was no such thing as a split ends,” says Holtzman.
”Of course not,” says Veeck.
They decide to separate the ends into split and tight.
Other names come out: Johnny Siegal. ”Oh, yeah, he was a tough monkey,” says Veeck.
How about Luke Johnsos? ”I didn`t see Luke play,” says Holtzman.
”Luke was a good end,” says Veeck. ”I worked for Halas in those days, you remember.” After a pause: ”No, you don`t remember.”
”I read it somewhere,” Quinn says.
”Harlon Hill averaged 20 yards per catch through his professional career,” Royko reads. ”Hill was a great end.”
”Yes, he was a good end, but Hewitt, whom you didn`t see. . .”
”. . .Never played with a helmet,” interjects Bentley.
”And was as good in his era as Hill was in his,” says Veeck. ”They picked him all-pro when they didn`t pick all-pros.”
”Well I would take them both,” says Veeck.
How about Johnny Morris?
”Oh, he can`t carry Hewitt`s. . .” Holtzman lets the thought trail off. ”How many games did he play when he set the record for most catches in one season?” Royko asks. ”He was hurting first quarter of the 14th game, and he still caught more. The guy caught almost a hundred passes.”
Quinn reads the stats: ”In terms of yardage, it`s Morris, Hill, Ditka, Kavanaugh.”
Veeck points out that many of the earlier ends played in a season that only had eight games, while Morris and Ditka played 14-game seasons. ”If you`re going to pick Halas to coach, you`re gonna certainly have to do something about his time period,” Veeck says. ”Because his record afterwards wasn`t all that good.” Veeck continues to press for Hewitt. They get into a pre-war versus post-war discussion, and then an artifical turf versus real discussion, and then the ”lively ball” era versus the other.
They try to pick two ends; Veeck balks: ”I can`t give you two ends, I can give you four but not two.” Finally, he votes for Hill.
At tight end, Ditka is the popular choice.
Someone mentions Doc McColl.
”Ohhh, come on,” moans Holtzman. ”Doc McColl.”
Quarterback. ”Sid Luckman, let`s move on,” says Royko.
Sayers and Payton are almost as quick.
”I didn`t raise my hand,” Veeck says.
”Who you got, ” Royko asks.
”I got Grange,” says Veeck.
”You got 40 seconds,” says Royko.
”I got Grange. I mean who`s gonna throw him out so quick?” Veeck looks around for some support.
”We were going to use him as a kickoff returner,” says Royko.
”He saved this ballclub for some years,” says Veeck.
Fullback?
Nagurski.
”No, he played too long ago,” Veeck needles.
How about Bill Osmanski?
”Bill Osmanski is correct,” says Bentley. ”I already have it written down.”
”Dr. William Osmanski,” Holtzman says. ”He`s a dentist. Pulled a few of my teeth once. I can still feel it.”
”Casey Stengel was also a doctor,” says Veeck.
They go for Nagurski.
”Bulldog Turner all the way for center,” says Holtzman.
”Oh, I don`t know about that,” says Veeck.
”Who you got?” says Holtzman.
”I would make Turner into something else, and play Trafton.”
”I nominate Mike Pyle, he played on a championship team,” says Royko.
”That`s not enough,” says Holtzman. ”Jim Rivera played on a championship team.”
When it comes to the offensive line, Stydahar is the name. ”What makes Stydahar so big?” says Royko. ”You know what made him so big? If you were honest, he was a lot bigger than most of the guys he played against.”
”Yes he was,” says Veeck, ”and meaner.”
”He was just a bully against littler guys.”
”That`s what football is all about,” says Holtzman. ”Being a bully makes you a great football player.”
”In those times,” says Veeck. ”You and I would be 4-foot-8. That`s how much the human animal has grown since then.”
The tackles: Link Lyman and Ed Healey.
”Ed Healey was called by Halas the greatest versatile tackle who ever played the game,” says Veeck.
”Because Ed Healey worked cheap,” says Royko. ”He always said nice things about guys who worked cheap.”
Royko votes for Herman Lee. Someone asks: Who?
”Who the hell was Herman Lee?” Royko echoes the question. ”It`s fitting you ask,” he says. ”Herman Lee never gave an interview. . .”
”Herman Lee played nine seasons, from Florida,” Quinn interjects.
Ray Bray and Danny Fortmann are unanimous choices for guard.
For defensive end, Doug Atkins is a sure bet.
”Doug Plank!” says Royko. ”We got to put Doug Plank in. The man reduced his height by six inches running into people. Ought to at least give him some recogntion for that.”
On kickers: ”I like George Blanda,” says Royko. ”I don`t care how many records this other bird Thomas makes. Thomas kicks the ball too low and they get blocked too easily and he`s a choker.”
”Blanda,” says Holtzman. ”You`re talking about one of the best.”
”He kicked with his toe,” say Royko. ”He didn`t kick like these &+%!! Bulgarians do.
”What about Mac Percival?” says Quinn.
”There was a helluva guy,” says Bentley.
”Oh, yeah, he was a great choker,” Royko says.
”You gotta have Eddie Sprinkle,” says Royko. ”You`re damn right,”
says Bentley. ”Sprinkle used to twist necks,” says Royko, ”and torsos.”
Veeck nominates Grange: ”Grange is the only player in the history of the NFL where the stands chanted for him on defense. He`s the only guy who could handle Hudson.”
Someone mentions Stydahar for defensive tackle.
”For &+%!! sake, that`s enough,” Royko says. ”Why don`t we make him Man Of The Year in Chicago, too. He`s already on one team.`
Wally Chambers and Fred Williams come up for linemen.
”Wally Chambers was probably the best inside rusher they`ve had, he and Hampton, in modern times,” says Royko.
As for linebacker, ”George Connor invented the position,” Bentley announces.
”He did not,” says Royko. ”Bill George invented the position.”
”And Butkus perfected it,” Bentley says. There are the votes.
Finally, coach:
”Halas,” Royko says. ”Don`t put anyone else in. There are no other nominees.”
Now to the White Sox.
”Shortstop is (Luis) Aparicio,” says Veeck.
”Then what are you going to do with Luke Appling?” says Royko.
”That`s a good question,” says Veeck. ”Shortstop`s most important thing is defensive,” says Veeck. ”I would move Luke Appling to third. Second base Nellie Fox, no question.`
”How about someone at second base besides Nellie Fox?” Holtzman asks.
”You want somebody else besides Nellie Fox?” Royko says with disbelief. ”I was never a great Fox man.”
Veeck, meanwhile is considering the outfield. ”Mostil, play him in center. Minoso, play him in left, and play Jackson in right.”
”I`d like to dispute that,” says Holtzman. ”Regarding Mostil. I vote for Jim Landis. Johnny Mostil was not that good. Mostil played 10 years, most of them, he was only a regular five years at most. He had a .301 lifetime, he hit no home runs.”
Royko seconds Landis.
”Landis was a better center fielder than Minoso,” Holtzman continues.
”He was the key man in the championship team in `59. Landis was a great center fielder. Landis was a better center fielder than Willie Mays if you want to believe it or not.”
”Did Minoso ever play any games in center?” Royko asks.
”No, Minoso is an overrated player,” says Holtzman. ”Harold Baines, we ought to throw him in there.”
”Dick Allen`s gotta be at first base,” Holtzman says.
Everyone agrees.
Pitchers. ”Ted Lyons and Billy Pierce,” says Condon.
”Cicotte was not what you`d call a throwaway,” says Veeck.
”No he wasn`t,” says Condon.
”And his record looks pretty good,” says Veeck.
”How about Dickie Kerr, right hander.”
”Ed Walsh!” Holtzman moans. ” &+%!!, how can you leave Ed Walsh off?
Ed Walsh won 400 games.”
”Two fine years,” says Veeck.
”You can make a helluva case for Walsh,” says Holtzman.
”But you can make a better case for Lyons,” says Veeck. ”Walsh pitched with some good teams, Ted Lyons didn`t ever pitch for a good team.”
”Oh &+%!!, wait a second, Eddie Collins, oh, my God! Eddie Collins. I gotta go for Eddie Collins over Nellie Fox,” Holtzman says.
”Then make Nellie Fox a utility man,” says Royko.
”But then every living Sox fan will scream bloody murder.”
”Exactly,” Bentley says.
They decide against it.
Finally, the Cubs.
”My choice for first base, if I may start,” Bentley says, ”is Charlie Grimm.”
Royko and Condon favor Phil Cavarretta.
”His stats are just as good,” says Royko, ”and he wasn`t as big a bull ——-.”
”Gotta have Frank Chance in there, the peerless leader,” says Holtzman. Ron Santo for third is Royko`s choice, Stanley Hack is Bentley`s. ”Hack had a lifetime average of high .290s, and Santo`s around .278, but he had a tremendous number of home runs,” says Royko, ”and ribbies. Stan Hack was a singles and doubles hitter.”
”Right, he was playing out of position,” says Holtzman.
”There`s gotta be more, we`re missing a second baseman,” says Holtzman. There`s some discussion for Cey at third, but no one votes for that.
For catcher: ”Gabby Hartnett all the way,” says Holtzman. ”No contest. Randy Hundley second.”
”What about Jody Davis?”
”Nah, you can`t put him in a class with those great catchers,” says Holtzman.
”He was better than Randy Hundley,” Royko ventures.
”The hell he was,” says Holtzman.
Oufielders:
”Billy Williams in left.”
”Over Kiki Cuyler?” Bentley asks in disbelief.
”Yeah, look at the stats,” say Royko. ”Kiki Cuyler, for &+%!! sakes.” ”Bill Nicholson,” Holtzman suggests.
”No,” Royko yells. ”I`d rather have Hank Sauer.”
”You gotta go for Riggs (Stephenson) in right field,” says Bentley.
”Why do I gotta go for Riggs?” Royko asks testily.
”You don`t gotta go for him, but he undoubtedly during those championship teams and during those seasons, was undoubtedly the most consistent clutch player that they ever had: Riggs Stephenson.”
”I wasn`t impressed by his RBIs,” says Royko.
”You weren`t around in those days,” says Bentley.
”I can read,” says Royko.
Royko likes Andy Pafko in his outfield.
”Cuyler,” says Condon.
Seconded by Holtzman.
It goes back and forth between Cuyler and Stephenson. Finally they decide on Stephenson.
Then they remember Billy Williams for the outfield, and he is unanimously approved.
They move on to pitchers. Right hander Ferguson Jenkins is a favorite.
Someone nominates lefty Ken Holtzman.”Ahh,” growls Royko. ”That turncoat! He demanded to be traded from this town. He said he didn`t like Chicago or the Cubs! I vote aginst him! I would vote against him as a resident! That &+%!!”
”I`d rather have Dizzy Dean,” says Royko. ”With a bad arm.”
”Aww, come on,” says Holtzman.
”Don`t start with Dizzy Dean now,” Bentley says.
”How about Larry French,” Holtzman says. ” &+%!!, that`s a name out of the past.”
”What was his record?” Royko asks.
”Not too good,” says Holtzman. ”He probably didn`t even win 100 games.”
”Holtzman didn`t win 100 games,” says Royko.
The record book says Larry French won 197 games.
”That saves our ass there,” says Holtzman.
Holtzman won 174.
For relief pitchers, Holtzman nominates Don Elston.
”Yeah, but Don Elston blew it against Cincinnati in `57,” says Royko.
”His arm fell off.”
Dutch Leonard. Phil Regan.
Finally, someone says: Sutter. No contest.
They elect Grimm as manager. ”God, the old timers would drop over in their graves,” says Holtzman, ”because they all thought he was a lousy manager.”
Cap Anson comes up.
”We gotta have Cap Anson,” says Royko.
”He was a great manager,” says Holtzman.
”I know, but he was also second to Banks in at bats, first in Cub history in runs scored, first in hits, first in doubles, second in triples,” Royko says.
”We agree, but the people who read that won`t know who the hell Cap Anson is,” says Bentley.
”I don`t care,” says Royko.
”There`s a younger generation out here,” says Bentley.
”The ignorance of history doesn`t eliminate history,” says Royko. ”It just proves that somebody is ignorant.”
Another popular choice: Ryne Sandberg for utility man.
After nearly three hours, the meeting deteriorates. Everyone wants to leave. They go over a few of the choices, modify a few. They fully realize that the fans may vote for the most popular players. They expect The Refrigerator and other modern heroes to be the overwhelming choice of the fans.
They don`t care.
Holtzman offers to name all 33 Bears on the 1941 team. ”He`s another Cosell,” says Bentley. Shortly therafter, the group adjourns, never to meet again.
